Episode 11
===
Safrianna: So today we're going to talk about navigating pride in honor of pride month mm-hmm and us being LGBTQ IA+ individuals, but we're gonna be talking about pride beyond. Pride month, like, what does it mean to have a healthy relationship with pride and how do we navigate the concept of pride when our society has been so anti, anti, us loving anything about ourselves?
Ikenna: Mm-hmm,
Safrianna: taking ownership in it.
Ikenna: I mean, that's gonna cause capitalist society in like the makeup and. Plastic surgery industry of like, this is how your body's supposed to look like sort of thing. And that causes people to, I mean, it's one thing if you purchase that for your own self-expression, but it's another thing that, you know, everyone has been pressured by the capitalist society of, of hating yourself. And you must purchase these products in order to be loved by the world or tolerated by the world.
Safrianna: So you're speaking to like taking genuine pride in our appearance and like who we are and how we want to look versus what the world thinks we should look like.
Ikenna: Yeah. Because you are speaking to the. what were the words that you just used?
Safrianna: So I was saying, you know, navigating our healthy relationship with, with pride in a society, that's literally shamed the concept of pride as like arrogance, as being full of yourself as, uh, you know, liking yourself too much. Like what does it mean to like yourself too much, or to love yourself too much versus is there a healthy relationship with life?
Ikenna: so I guess maybe because I haven't necessarily been in that space before, what is it to be to love yourself too much?
Safrianna: Yeah. And that's where I think we need to differentiate, like again, healthy pride and self love versus arrogance because arrogance usually comes from in actually insecurity. Right?
Putting on a face of. Being something that we're not mm-hmm um, because we feel like an imposter or we feel not good enough. It's usually coming from a not good enough, you know, and of course there's narcissism and things like that. And I've worked with so many people. That literally tell me, I don't wanna take pride in my accomplishments.
I don't wanna take pride in my identity. I don't want to be happy with what I've done, because that will mean that I'm full of myself. That will mean I'm arrogant. That will mean I'm narcissistic. So the concept of pride and even like pride is one of the seven deadly sins.
Ikenna: Mm-hmm
Safrianna: right. So that also. Has applied a cultural stigma against the concept of taking pride in our work, owning our personalities and actually loving ourselves.
So I think this is a good question of what is the difference between actually loving yourself, because is there such a thing as loving yourself too much?
Ikenna: Mm-hmm
Safrianna: versus, you know, moving into that sort of arrogant, I'm the center of the entire world territory.
Ikenna: Yeah. And. I mean, you just, uh, hosted and led a pride and pleasure ritual mm-hmm and the words pride and pleasure are both things that we've been taught as a society that, you know, are deadly sins.
right. Like, we've take, if we take too much pleasure in something, then you're glutinous or, um, too much pride is another deadly sin mm-hmm so it's just one of those things where we don't want to be anywhere near that. And it's just cultivates us feeling more secure in being overly critical in hating ourselves, because that would mean that we are unselfish and, we're, we're just going to.
Martyr ourselves by attempting to pour from an empty cup, so to speak, right. Because God forbid we do self care for ourselves. The whole like put on your oxygen mask before you put it on someone else. Mm-hmm is just such a, they have to tell you that. Every time when you go on an airplane, because people would not do that.
Safrianna: Right.
Ikenna: That's not how our brains work. We're like, I need to sacrifice myself. And it's like, if you are not able to breathe, you will fail to put them, help people put their oxygen masks on.
Safrianna: Right? Yeah. And so being able to be proud of our accomplishments of our interests, of our identity and personality, I think.
Is important. And like, I think of I'm thinking of a meme. Um, there was a little comic meme and I'm sure we can find it to post, but it was basically like, you know, those damn LGBTQ people making, being gay, their entire identity mm-hmm and then you see like a, a picture of like the back of their car.
That's like covered in political mm-hmm , you know, stickers and stuff like. You know, what if that's what you like to own go for it. if that's what you take pride in, whatever you identify in, as long as you're not deliberately harming other people, like, okay. But it's like, there's only certain things that we're allowed to be proud about.
Ikenna: Mm-hmm
Safrianna: um, and, oh my gosh, we could obviously go down the whole, why isn't there straight pride and you know, why isn't there white pride and things like that. But like acknowledging pride is an individual mm-hmm and normalizing being able to. take that pride in who we are and pleasure in who we are, I think is, is something we're missing.
Ikenna: Yeah. I mean, the that's the, that's the thing though, is that, you know, you hear songs of like proud country boy or proud to be an American or, you know, pride over these dominant culture concepts. Like that's, you know, proud to be, a Christian. All of these different things that are just easy to say, cuz there's no discrimination necessarily against that.
Safrianna: Right. So, yeah. And if you wanna be proud to be an American, go, go for it. Exactly. I don't have to be right.
Ikenna: So, but, um, I was thinking about how. why is pride such a big deal for, you know, this month, LGBTQIA community. And, um, I'm gonna, I'm like, I need to find a way to plug this into. this podcast, because it's just such an incredible song.
Safrianna: I knew it. I knew coming in today that this was gonna be a thing that came up
Ikenna: well. Yeah. Cause it's, it's crucial. Um, and so Mattie Zahm I'm really bad at pronouncing spell it. Z a H M Zahm.
Safrianna: I'd say Zahm,
Ikenna: but yeah. Okay. Yeah. So she just released a beautiful. Song, that's heartbreaking, basically talking about, loving her, like her younger self would be so shocked and, upset over the things that she had done when she's older, because that wasn't the values that her younger self mm-hmm had younger self had, but her younger self also didn't know how to be real.
Like her younger self was just trying to fit in. Yeah. And so it's like pride. for communities that don't have a space to be proud usually, or have been shamed for attempting to just, discover their identity, not even proclaim it loud and proud and, and, uh, be super open about it. Just figuring it out, uh, right.
Safrianna: Safe spaces are important to gather with people. we feel akin to
Ikenna: mm-hmm yeah. So it's, so we're not the, the, I doubt, that there have been many people who have felt the shame for their dominant culture society. Um, as much as people who are in. Minorities for being who they are.
Safrianna: Right. Because currently when I think about pride, like just the concept of pride, there's certainly things that dominant society or dominant culture have said it's okay to be proud about and things that it's not.
And. Where that ultimately stems from, is that separation, right? Like, well, if you're proud of that, that means I can't be proud of this, which is totally false. Mm. Like, yeah. And, and I see white people get up in arms all the time about, you know, when there's. African American heritage month or black history month and things like that.
And they're like, well, why isn't there a white history month?
Ikenna: Because that is history
Safrianna: because this is the dominant history. But if you wanna celebrate some aspect of your history by all means, go for it. Like there are. Totally groups for that. You don't have to shame another group mm-hmm for having
Ikenna: they're St. Patrick's day. Be happy for being Irish. Thank you.
Safrianna: right. And I mean, there are people that do, you know, reenactment of war, which I personally don't know why you would be proud of war, uh, but you can be proud that your family defended your country or, or whatever. And that does not have to, like, I don't have to shame.
Yeah. And tell you not to do it right. Or make a big deal or anything in order to be proud of the things that I am proud of. And it's like that whole like, idea that there's only so many slices of the pride pie that can go around. Mm. Which yeah, totally. It's false.
Ikenna: right. And, and I also, think that people believe that pride events well, the, you know, I went to a pride event last weekend in DC and, um, right on DuPont circle, there were these really loud protestors that were screaming about, Pride being the devil and that, we need to be saved.
And, and it's like, our pride event was not here to send a message to straights being like, hello,
Safrianna: convert or convert or else,
Ikenna: you know, and it's almost like that. It's just a space for us to celebrate ourselves. and it's not a space for, you know, there's a lot of, uh, There's been a lot of sad news reports of, white supremacists and proud boys.
There was someone that there was a drag queen that was doing like story time in a library and proud boys came in and harassed her to the point where her and her boyfriend had to. They had to like take her into a back room, like the librarians and have her change into more masculine clothes and take off makeup so they could escape without any sort of detrimental thing happening, but it's like that like people chose to be there. Like if your kid didn't want to, if you didn't want your kid to show, like go to a drag queen book, reading at a library, you don't have to take them there, but you. Showing up with tactical gear, right. To a library is gonna cause more fear.
Safrianna: Well, that's a threat. So this is where pride and threat need to be uncoupled mm-hmm because again, if I'm proud of being LGBTQIA a or I'm. Proud to, you know, sometimes I take pride in being an AFAB person mm-hmm because I take pride in the fact that I've survived mm-hmm and, you know, experienced what I've experienced and been able to work through it.
Healthily like, and I don't know, some people might have opinions about having pride in that, but like, I don't have to attack or make threats on other people mm-hmm to take pride in what I've been through and my identity again, like there's, like, and it's interesting, proud boys.
it's a threat. It's a, it's a superiority thing. And so if, if quote, unquote pride is coming out of, I am superior to you. That's not healthy pride.
Ikenna: Mm-hmm
Safrianna: and that's why, you know, the topic I wanted to call it navigating pride, because we wanna learn how to healthly navigate what healthy pride actually looks like.
Mm-hmm, making threats, acting like you're superior acting like you are somehow better than others, because you are. White or black or Latino or Asian or male or female or anything like is not, that's not pride. That's comparison and that's reductionist and like
Ikenna: yeah.
Safrianna: All kinds of things. And there's also subsects of how we treat people.
Ikenna: in pride events in terms of pride is supposed to be a safe space. Um, and if there are, and, and it's supposed to be a safe space with no judgment, essentially mm-hmm and there are a lot of ambiguous looking people out there that you have no idea what their sexuality, gender expression, identity, whatever would be.
and there are also people who can be quote, unquote flagged for looking like a heterosexual couple. Right. But they can both be cisgender, um, asexual people, you know, that are happen, people.
Safrianna: Well, I've known people in the LGBTQIA community that say ACE people don't deserve a place right in the umbrella like this again, this whole idea of division mm-hmm and obviously LGBTQIA a is saying,
Ikenna: but sexuality is in general is such a dominant right concept.
So it's another space for people to be like, okay, I don't have. That desire for being sexual, um, like dominant culture claims sexuality needs to be mm-hmm um, and there's less representation of them, right? Like I am, I planned on one of the weeks of the month, uh, to spread asexual awareness and there's very few quote, unquote out asexual, like characters mm-hmm or they don't really use the term asexuality.
Around too much. There's not really many asexual songs out there, like, right. Um, so the fact that, it's just another minority within a minority, right. But you can have, you can have pride in that, in exist in LGBTQ pride. Spaces, um, or I hope like
Safrianna: yeah. Again, if our, if our quote unquote pride in ourselves is trying to diminish someone else's how is that?
Mm-hmm, healthy pride. That's that is external comparative focused stuff.
Don't even get me started on BI erasure.
Ikenna: oh, right. Well, that's what I was saying too, is like, it could just be two CIS people who are bi um, a bi man and a, bi a woman together. But they're both bi so right. They both belong in pride too.
And it's just the amount of. Discrimination that people have to experience whether, and if you are like, I, I know that the history of pride, uh, you know, pride started with a riot, you know, that's usually the phrase, and a lot of people leading the movement, I believe were black trans women. Yes. Um, but then it was like the concept of the gay man was just such like a terrifying concept that it once, once, uh, you know, HIV and like gay con, like homosexuality was becoming a little bit more.
Open, visible, visible. Yeah, the white chiseled gay man kind of became like the, the prime, uh, like this, this is what gay, you know, LGBTQ I pride means ultimately, Fit, attractive white bodies.
Safrianna: Well, I won't, I won't call out like specific organizations, but you know, when we witness LGBTQ, I organizations I've noted that a lot of them tend to be all the board members have, have leaned heavily towards being gay white men.
Ikenna: Mm-hmm yeah.
Safrianna: So it's like we need diversity and pride. We, and. and that means not again, not just LGBTQIA a pride, but being able to be proud in our heritage and our ancestry and, uh, you know, maybe the town that we were raised in, or even our country of origin, if we feel genuinely proud of that.
Ikenna: And it's like, it's kind of like, I'm gonna make an interesting analogy.
Um,
Safrianna: heck, heck, I'm ready for this.
Ikenna: So I was thinking about this the other day, in terms of, you know, sometimes I'll have a hyper fixation and I'll really wanna share it with you. And let's say you're like, I don't feel comfortable or I, I don't, I'm not interested in it, or I really don't want, like, there was a TV show that I was like, oh, come on.
Just like one episode. Like, I really wanna share this with you. And. No, like don't push me into watching this. And I was like, oh, right, like, sorry. Um, but it's like pride doesn't mean evangelical mm-hmm , uh, and pride can be like your hyper fixated passion on aspects of your self that you love. Absolutely.
Um, and. uh, dedicated to learning more about, so there are people that do like the 23 and me, and like trace all of their family roots and have like, uh, genealogy, genealogy, family tree, like posted in their house. Like they it's awesome.
Safrianna: That's you do you boo.
Ikenna: That's really cool. Um, I, you know, learned more about my neurodivergence and became super hyper fixated on what that meant and kind.
Helping people build more awareness. I'm not necessarily being, evangelical towards it necessarily, but I am posting about it more often. Um, but I'm not being like, uh, shoving it onto people,
Safrianna: right? You're not like this is the only correct way to be. You're like, this is my way of being mm. And I'm celebrating that and
Ikenna: it's not doing harm.
That's the biggest thing. Like when, when we see someone having pride in doing harm, that's when we, uh, can, and this is the whole like interesting morality of it, all of like, how do we define harm? Cuz we can go into really interesting depths of what different religions and different people describe as harm.
And right then they get evangelical about. you are not allowed to do this. We are going to make laws and whatnot of like what harm is. And that can be really hard because there's
Safrianna: some people claim that they're being harmed by the existence of people, which yes, but also people like, I believe it's Texas or I, I think it's Texas, that there are different laws
Ikenna: put out as being voted on, that discuss the fact that parents who are accepting of their trans kids' identities are groomers. Wow. Essentially. And if anyone catches winds that a parent is, you know, accepting of their kid's trans identity or anything, they can be reported and sent to jail. Wow. Um, I don't know if any of those have passed.
Yeah. I surely hope not, but I've, I've heard that those are some of the laws in existence, uh, or the ones that are, could be in existence soon, but it's like so that's what people define as harm. They're like we're saving these kids from this grooming situation and they're evangelical about that.
Safrianna: Yeah, yikes. And that's, that's only one right. Way of thinking being, um, wow. That was a collection of words, but yeah, when we are convinced that there's only one right side mm-hmm . we're probably doing harm. Yeah. If, if we think there's only one right way to be like, obviously there are certain ways that it is never right to be doing physical harm or making threats to other people is never okay.
Mm-hmm, , uh, doing things to people's bodies, minds, psyches, spirits, et cetera, without their consent is harm. Like doing things to people without consent is harm. , you don't have to go to a pride parade. You don't have to watch a show with a gay person in it. You don't have to participate in, you know, a group that you're not interested in, but actively saying that that group all needs to die or needs to change or needs to repent or whatever.
That's to me doing harm. Yeah.
Ikenna: And if you are uncomfortable or disgusted by it or whatever, But yet you're still going to those places and submerging yourself into the culture to protest it,
Safrianna: to be angry,
Ikenna: to be angry about it is not healthy for you. right. Like, you're just gonna get more activated.
Safrianna: It's not taking your rights away for someone else to be a member of a group that you aren't.
Right. And that's where, you know, this whole concept of just pride in general is really interesting to me because.
I'm never, it's like, I try to be so careful in my wording cuz I never wanna make it sound like, you know, I support, um, points of view that that genuinely do harm.
Ikenna: Well, right. That was why I was going down the rabbit hole of like, oh evangelical, you don't wanna be evangelical, but also you still wanna stand up and advocate for if there.
Are people that are doing harm, but then what does harm mean in the morality of everyone else? Because people who have protested things that I've, that I don't agree with or do agree with, have claimed harm as like the reason why they're protesting it, even though I don't see it that way. So it's a really, yeah.
Fascinating human nature conundrum.
Safrianna: Right? So it, it is hard to navigate these things. It's really hard to. be delicate. And I think that it's in our best interests. If we feel like we're othering someone else, if we feel like we're energetically getting tied up in someone else's identity and that determining something about our future, if they're really genuinely not attacking us, like, why are we, why are we spending our time defending our identity?
If their identity. Isn't and doesn't have to intersect with ours. Mm-hmm I E evangelical churchgoers, like go evangelize all you want in your church group. Right. And, and with the people that are interested and with the people that, that show up and want to be a part of that, but you don't need to take that into a, a pride, an LGBTQ pride event and tell them that they're wrong and they're all going to hell cuz that does emotional harm.
Mm. and this is where it's like, I don't believe in attacking any group.
Ikenna: Right.
Safrianna: Any group I believe in supporting. All groups who choose to do no harm. Right? So like, obviously I, I like to go to my neoNazis. Um, they are doing harm, right, right. Their, their worldview, uh, if, if all they ever did was sit privately in their house and stew in their misery about the fact that, you know, black people exist and gay people exist and whatever exist.
All right. You do you boo. But it's the fact that they go out and they do harm and they make threats and they have weapons. Mm-hmm and they do scary ass shit and they commit crimes. Um, I'm not gonna support that. I'm not gonna condone that, but I am not going to attack the entire group of every person that ever has believed something of that nature.
Right. Because we know the belief comes from trauma, right.
Ikenna: So I also, man, my brain, see my brain always goes into this, like picking apart the nuance of, of everything. So. I was thinking about how pride is an organized event. Mm-hmm where people are not trying to do harm. They're just in celebrating, celebrating.
But I also started this episode by saying pride started with a riot. Yes. So it's like, okay. like riots were causing like harm to. Like, uh, I don't know, wasn't it like a brick was thrown through a window, a window mm-hmm .
Safrianna: Um, and, and that, all of that original pride, there's some really, really good books on this.
And I am not a history buff and I don't remember names and I apologize for that, but that was like mostly. Police on LGBTQ instigated, right? Like a, you know, and, and that was defense at that point, it's like backing, you know, backing a, a scared wounded animal into a corner and expecting it, not to lunge out and bite you kind of thing.
Right. Um,
Ikenna: expecting the freeze response when it was a fight response.
Safrianna: Exactly. And, and so trauma. Right. Trauma responses. And that's why even with our, you know, super violent groups, I acknowledge that there's trauma at play there. It does not excuse the behavior. Right. Um, but unfortunately, as a species, we've had to move into violence in order to make changes, which is really, yeah.
She's really fucked up and. Going back in time and looking at that nuance. Yes. Pride started with a, a riot, but it's not that anymore. Mm-hmm and it doesn't need to be that anymore. If we can be a culture that just lets each other be. Right. And, and lets us own our experiences and be authentic and not be in the, there is only one right.
Way of being and only one, right. Way of thinking mindset, you know, it's this, I talk about it. I feel like at least once an episode, the whole illusion of separation, mm-hmm right. Like if, if I'm white and you're black, we're both still human. If I'm gay and you're straight, we're both still human. If , if I'm a Christian and you're a Buddhist, we're still human.
There's no need to argue about those things or fight or make threats about those things. How does your gender identity determine shit about mine? Right. So how do your hobbies determine what I do with my time? They don't right. They don't have to,
Ikenna: they don't have to, no,
Safrianna: it's this buying into the idea. any identity other than ours is wrong.
Um, and unfortunately, because of that, there have been moments of extreme violence where people have felt like there's no other way for them to get common human decency. But these groups now, uh, that are often the, you know, the groups are neo-Nazis and, and things that I, I like to refer to because they're, they are our image.
You know of terror harm and terror and their identity, no one is threatening to take away their whiteness or kill them for being white or male. Um, well, okay. There are there are I, you know, I, I saw in a group the other day, like a kill all men. Oof. And I was like, mm. And then there was a big argument in the comments, cuz then there was another, it was like a, a kill all men who abused their power,
Ikenna: but like men.
Might abuse their power inadvertently, because that was just how they were raised.
Safrianna: Right. They might not know,
do they actually deserve to die if they've abused their power or do they deserve the chance to heal, like yeah.
Ikenna: To learn about it and have the opportunity to figure that out.
Safrianna: And it's so messy.
Ikenna: It is.
Safrianna: It's so messy because you know, I've experienced. More than one more God, like half a dozen or more men in power who have abused that power directly upon my physical being. Yeah. And my emotional being. But I don't think any of them deserve to die.
Ikenna: Right. It would be like if either of us looked back at all of the mistakes we made in our life where we've hurt people's feelings or said the quote unquote, wrong thing, or maybe abused our power in one way or another.
Um, inadvertently do we deserve to die?
Safrianna: Right? I've I fully own to the fact that I've done shit, that if people, you know, knew those things outta context could automatically assume I'm a terrible person. Right. Because we've all done those things. We've all done things that have done harm upon someone else.
Yeah. But it's an intentional choice and we can take pride in. the growth and the healing and the learning and the, you know, expanding into a new way of being, and we can offer forgiveness in that. Yeah. So yeah, there's, there's so much conversation to be had here, but as is the core of our message, we want people to be able to be authentic and, and normalize that authenticity within themselves and be able to take pride in, in whatever you wanna take pride in.
As long as you're not taking pride in being quote unquote superior to someone.
Ikenna: Yeah. Yeah. So don't consider yourself superior. Um, and when you start to have feelings about another group of people having pride in what they're doing, uh, or in their identity, if you start to have feelings of like discomfort or upset, is it because they are.
Actively seeking out ways to harm people, or is it just because they are demographic that you just don't necessarily agree with their message and, but,
Safrianna: or don't identify with,
Ikenna: or don't identify with, um, because we all have, uh, inherent biases mm-hmm, , uh, that will cause us to have the gut reactions towards different things.
Um, thank you, society for having a, for causing us to have those. Just gaining more awareness around that stuff is, is crucial, absolutely stopping and, and asking ourselves, why am I having this gut reaction is right. Crucial in helping us better understand ourselves our own identities as well as other identities.
Safrianna: Mm-hmm yeah. And love yourself. Healthy love. Oh man. Yeah. Loving yourself is, is, uh, it's a hard thing. it's actual love. There is no such thing as too much of it though. Indeed. There is never too much love.
Ikenna: think about that, love yourself and cry about it. Cause Lord knows. I have, uh, with that Maddy Zahm song, you're like, it's all about loving, you know, loving herself now as an authentic person.
And I'm like, oh, sobs forever.
Oh heck
Safrianna: heck. Dang.
