[00:00:00] Safrianna: Okay. As I wiggle in this one little strand of hair just pops out. Is that close enough?
[00:00:08] Ikenna: Probably. Yeah.
[00:00:08] Safrianna: Okay.
[00:00:09] Wow.
[00:00:10] Ikenna: Yeah, it's not like, it's not like, um, a meditation where you have
[00:00:14] to be eating.
[00:00:15] Safrianna: I know. I'm so used to your, like, you need to be eating the microphone. And then in here, when we're podcasting, it's down there.
[00:00:21] This is why I'm confused.
[00:00:22] Ikenna: Well, that's because we talk loud or I try to talk loud to make you try to talk louder. I
[00:00:28] Safrianna: see this is, this is very interesting information
[00:00:33] Ikenna: I'm modeling for you.
[00:00:35] Safrianna: I see. Okay. Welcome to Living Luna Live. We're live in the studio for months. Live in the studio. Live in the studio. The studio with a cat.
[00:00:47] Yep. The sweetest little baby cat Tuesday. So we. Had some scheduling that went a little awry today. No big deal. And as always, we try to go with the flow and face things as they come up. So we decided to just take this opportunity to, to get on live and record our next episode mm-hmm. For the Living Luna podcast, which if you have not listened to yet, we have been running for right at about a year now.
[00:01:14] Yep. It's, um, actually about a year and a month since we, oh. Tuesday,
[00:01:23] Ikenna: sorry, we're getting distracted by our cute,
[00:01:25] cute cat Tuesday.
[00:01:29] Safrianna: It's been a year and a month and 11 days. Mm-hmm. It's been 1, 1, 1, 1. Wow. 1111. Wow. 1111. Since we released our first podcast. Mm-hmm. So that's a cool live realization right there.
[00:01:45] And Oh, sweet Tuesday. This whole episode is just gonna be me commenting on Tuesday. We're not even gonna get into any actual real content.
[00:01:53] Ikenna: I know
[00:01:54] they're seeing the title of spiritual bypassing and codependency title.
[00:01:57] Just you're petting the cat. Yeah. So
[00:02:00] our cat's just our spiritual bypassers.
[00:02:04] Safrianna: Cats are indeed a distraction sometimes, which is part of, well, which is definitely part of this practice.
[00:02:12] Uh, spiritual bypassing is a topic that's been coming up, I think for a lot of us. Mm-hmm. Lately, a lot of us. Yeah. And I know I've been doing a lot of client work lately where this idea of bypassing in general is coming up, you know, mental health, bypassing. And spiritual bypassing, positive bypassing like the, the whole toxic positivity, but just this idea of bypassing over something that feels uncomfortable rather than honoring the deeper wisdom that exists within that shadow side of things.
[00:02:56] So to me, that's what bypassing is. What does it bring up for you?
[00:03:00] Ikenna: Bypassing? Well, I've been working really hard on being more intentionally present because discomfort, like trying to get out of discomfort. People will immediately get out of the present. Mm-hmm. And so it's like, I'll feel uncomfortable in some way and then I'll be like, well, now I'm just going to dissociate in some way.
[00:03:26] Whether that be scroll on my phone, whether it be binge eating something, um, it's like you can seek comfort, like you can still have coping skills that bring comfort back in for you. But it's like if you don't sit and try and recognize like, where is this discomfort coming from? I think the, the, the bypassing can come with like, if it doesn't take.
[00:03:54] If it takes longer than five seconds for us to immediately know where the discomfort's coming from, then we're like, I'll never figure it out. Time to dissociate. Like,
[00:04:02] Safrianna: and this, you know, that time to dissociate is literally what's called, um, the phobia of inner experience in some, uh, some psychology. And when you think about it, it is true.
[00:04:16] We literally developed this fear or this phobia of having an inner experience because we haven't been taught. Culturally, most of us, especially not growing up, most of us, how to sit with the uncomfortable feelings that exist within us. We've been told, you know when, when I was growing up, and this is no fault of tsunami criticizing my parents, it's just what it was.
[00:04:43] My mom, if we had emotions, would say, here's chocolate. Right. This is, this is how you, you deal with this tough emotion. And that's what she was taught. So she passed that on and there was no ability to question whether that was right for me or not, because we didn't have the capacity to have those conversations.
[00:05:02] Mm-hmm. So it is this phobia of inner experience that keeps us from looking at the vulnerable parts of us, the shadow side, the pain, the, you know, the discomfort. Because we're afraid of what we're gonna see. But then in that we're doing this, you know, we're tensing and we're literally creating the tension.
[00:05:24] Mm-hmm. That we're afraid of.
[00:05:27] Ikenna: Yeah. Yep. And also when you were talking about like that experience, there's often like if a child experiences big feelings in a public space, there can be a parental tension. Of like, this is too much. This is like, you know, you're, you're being too much, you're being, you're overreacting.
[00:05:53] Um, you know, you're making a big deal out of nothing. Kind of invalidating the internal experience as well. Mm-hmm. So then it's like we try our best to bypass the big feelings so that we aren't a burden on others, or that we don't, are, are not perceived as too much. Um, so it's like, because other people have placed that on us and we're like, I don't ever want to feel like that ever again.
[00:06:23] So I might as well just feel terrible internally without real.
[00:06:29] Safrianna: Or feel nothing.
[00:06:30] Ikenna: Or feel nothing. Yeah. And then just move on from there and like to protect us. Like it's, it's like in order to protect us ourselves, From feeling terrible about someone telling us that we're too much, we still feel terrible, but in a
[00:06:47] different way.
[00:06:48] Safrianna: Yeah. And this bypassing can go on to show up in all of these innocuous ways. I've, over the last few weeks really been diving deep into I, I'm in my spiral dance. Um, I'm in my return to cycle, to beginning of cycle, as it were, you know, at the end of a rebirth, period. And in that I'm encountering all of these old themes that are arising for me to look at them again.
[00:07:18] And what was distinctly different this time was I've reached a, reached a stage where I don't bypass in any way the mental health, the, you know, spiritual health may, maybe a little bit of the distraction, a little bit of the dissociation from time to time, but more intentionally. If that makes sense. Like a break instead of, I can't handle this, I need to completely retreat into myself.
[00:07:48] I can't look at this pain. And so what was different in this time was, wow, I'm in fucking pain. Can you say that live on Facebook? I did. Um, yes. I, I don't care about the rules that you make up society. Um, sue me. And I was like, I'm in this pain. I am seeing the ripples of these old traumatic patterns coming up yet again to be looked at.
[00:08:16] And it was shitty. It hurt. And instead of being like, oh no, we we're not gonna deal with this, we're gonna run away from this. I just got in the fields with it and in the fields with it was beautiful clarity and. Community and communication and that can't happen if we are stopping ourselves from using our voices because we are afraid that we're going to be too much or not
[00:08:47] enough.
[00:08:47] Ikenna: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That was reminding me of something I was talking to my supervisor about is like the base things I work on with my clients. Yes. Is to first recognize your needs so that you can advocate for them. Mm-hmm. But how are you to recognize your needs if you're bypassing the feelings that are giving you the information of what you need?
[00:09:16] Safrianna: Yes.
[00:09:17] Yeah. I mean, that's a really good point. And that's some of that like mental bypassing that we can do is, I mean, the whole, you have to, to feel it. Feel with it to deal with it or, or whatever those sayings are, like, there's a lot of truth in that and all feelings are information, and so when we're avoiding receiving certain information, we can't make an informed decision to move forward.
[00:09:44] Ikenna: Hmm. I mean, the avoiding piece is it, like I've, I've heard about situations where. We are avoiding because, or we're not necessarily, it's part of avoidance and part denial. Um, kind of like if there was bad stuff that was happening in the home sort of thing. Mm-hmm. And you're like, you know, but other parent, why didn't you see what this one parent was doing to me?
[00:10:17] And like the other parent was kind of in such dissociative denial because they're like, if I. Admit that I'm seeing this, then I have to do a lot of accountability stuff. That it's going to ruin the status quoll right now. Like if I just bypass and deny, then I won't be like, my whole world won't go up in flames, basically.
[00:10:46] Right. And so it's that thing too is like if this is the thing with, with healing, Like when you're, when someone comes to therapy to heal, they still also have to look at the shadow parts of themselves. Mm-hmm. The parts of themselves that they're like ashamed of, or the parts of themselves that they are.
[00:11:05] You know, worried that they, that they have and aren't really taking accountability for, because they're just constantly in denial about them having that.
[00:11:16] Safrianna: And you know, as you said that, that sparked for me why, you know, I'm moving in this coaching direction now instead of therapy. And both coaching and therapy can deal with light and the shadow.
[00:11:30] Right. But how they deal with it is different because, Therapy, you're really going in to deeply repair and process the shadow. Mm-hmm. Whereas in coaching, it's more learning to embrace. And go for the goals that maybe shadow desire has there, or the limiting beliefs that are impacting you in the present to give you new beliefs.
[00:11:55] And both approaches are important. Mm-hmm. Like there's shadow everywhere. There is never not shadow. Mm-hmm. There's never not suffering. There's just never, not in a, in a three-dimensional world where we have these bodies that die. And where things can fade and, and change form, there's always going to be suffering.
[00:12:16] Ikenna: I mean, people just assume that in the metaphorical like washing machine of life, um, that they can hide the red shirt amidst like the white shirts that they consider that, you know, the deniable plausibility of the red shirt, if there's enough white shirts in it, and it's like, no, no, no. Everything's turning pink and you're gonna see in the dryer like, like that red shirt's still going to affect the rest of everything.
[00:12:44] Like you can't necessarily be, um, like, I don't know. It's just such an interesting concept that people place this concept of perfection and that makes the spiritual bypassing even more. Like, yes. Rampant.
[00:13:08] Safrianna: And, and then there's this interesting thing, you know, and part of my circling back and, and we named this episode Spiritual bypassing and co-dependency.
[00:13:18] Mm-hmm. Where that gets perpetuated, where spiritual bypassing gets perpetuated through co-dependency. And again, in my spiral, I'm coming back to full circle and what's coming up for me right now is my co-dependent. Relationship within communities where there may be bypassing happening. And this is hard to look at, like it's really painful, scary stuff because it brings up that, you know, the rejection and the fear of, of separation and, um, losing people.
[00:13:54] And that's something I think keeps us so co-dependent is this belief that we're gonna end up alone if we share. The fullness and the truth of who we are and how we feel. And again, if we don't share how we feel, if we don't share what's really going on with us, we don't give other people the opportunity to respond in a way that's authentic to them.
[00:14:21] And we need to give everyone the opportunity to speak what's authentically them to break out of co-dependency. Because codependency and I, I, I wanna be so clear that until a year and a half ago, I had no idea what codependency was. And I've been a, you know, recovering codependent for my entire life. Uh, because I unfortunately have that perfect storm of childhood trauma that grooms us into codependency.
[00:14:54] And it is more rampant in our culture than we realize. But, um, You know, I'm really working on breaking free from this idea of being codependent where I have to manage other people's emotions to keep myself safe. And that's what I discovered codependency was, and it rocked my world, right? Because so many of us did have to stay quiet because we didn't have safe parents, um, or caregivers.
[00:15:21] We felt that we needed to parent our parents or our caregivers or other siblings or cousins or whatever, and we weren't given the full capacity to express ourselves authentically. And that's so the, the cure for co-dependency is authentic self-expression without any attempts to create a certain response from the other person.
[00:15:50] Mm-hmm. Yeah. I hope that makes sense. I know, it's like, it's really big, even for me to wrap my mind around, even though I've been hardcore deep diving, the, the breaking free from co-dependency for the last year and a half, because that meant looking at all of the relationships in which I was co-dependent, which was spoiler alert, all of them.
[00:16:13] Um mm-hmm. You, you can't, I, if it's showing up in one relationship, it's showing up in probably all of them. You know, and it's not no judgment, zero judgment. Again, this is like what we were built into based on how society has trained us to not show up for ourselves, to not see ourselves, to stay invisible, to stay silent, to not be weird, to not stand out, to not make a scene to dimmer light.
[00:16:46] Yeah.
[00:16:48] Ikenna: Yeah. And I mean, it's like. It's society has shown us that like dimming our light makes us more like likable or whatever. So it's almost like even if you have people who are supportive of what you offer, if you're only offering 15% of you and they're accepting the 15% of you, like one day you could be like, you know, screw this.
[00:17:17] I don't. I want to be, you know, more authentic me in front of these people. It feels so shallow and you know, and as soon as you give them 25%, Then they're like, whoa, this was not what we asked for.
[00:17:33] Safrianna: There's a whole
[00:17:33] 10% here that we didn't agree to. You're, you're, that you're only this 15%. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:17:40] Ikenna: And it's like, there are people out there that will be like, oh, interesting.
[00:17:43] Like, why am I seeing a different aspect of you? And you know, you can be like, I'm expanding being as authentic as possible, which is very hard. Um, which is what will happen when you break out of codependent factors. Like,
[00:17:56] Safrianna: and it's not easy, my friends, no.
[00:17:59] No, like Safrianna and I are
[00:18:02] Ikenna: both, you know, like I'm, um, probably earlier in the, like, I'm still like, I'm farther along in my codependency healing journey than I was, you know, a couple months ago.
[00:18:17] But I would say Safrianna is closer to like the healed and healing. Regarding the codependency aspect, and I'm more on just like the healing, like I'm in, like I'm in the chrysalis stage and Sri's like her, her goo, has basically like transformed her into like a, a really tired, like
[00:18:38] Safrianna: permanently exhausted butterfly.
[00:18:39] Yeah, that's me. Permanently exhausted butterfly and we're trying to move out of the permanently exhausted. By breaking free from the co-dependency and, you know, thank you for sharing where you feel like you're at in your journey. I think it's, it is so important that we acknowledge that there are people at all different stages and there is no timeline.
[00:19:03] There is no one right way, there is no superiority that actually exists. Any superiority that you believe exists is entirely flipping made up. It's made up. Who determined it. Mm-hmm. Trace it back. It's made up. So, yeah. I, I told you, I was like, if we're going live on this podcast, like I hope you know there's gonna be some spice coming in.
[00:19:26] Ikenna: I'm here
[00:19:27] for it, I'm here.
[00:19:30] Safrianna: But you know, we really have this opportunity to step into our fullest selves and heal the world around us. In doing so. And the number one way we do that is by not bypassing the shadow, not trying to control what other people think of us, feel in their own experience of us, any of that, you know, any of these codependent trappings.
[00:19:57] And to just live more in our light. And when I say inner light, I mean what's shining on us? What lights us up? What's our zone of joy and our zone of genius and our truth? Mm-hmm. And part of our truth is
[00:20:12] the shadow. And I want to caution people regarding, like in the shadow work piece, that's when you start to recognize the authenticity aspect.
[00:20:25] Ikenna: And it's not like, like if set boundaries, like that's, you know, they have every right to set boundaries and, and you can't be like, but that's in the way of my authenticity. Mm-hmm. Like if they have boundaries around that. And, but it's, it's, if it's not conducive to you living your authenticity, then you need to reevaluate.
[00:20:46] Like, would you be willing to stay in that relationship with that person? And you know, it's some, there are some lights that are okay to be dimmed. You know, like some are easier to dim than others, and you're just like, yeah, like, I'm not gonna be. You know, this level of whatever with this person and I'll, you know, be this level with whatever, with
[00:21:06] this person y Yeah.
[00:21:07] Safrianna: You know, and, and that's such a good point. We wanna caution about safety because as somebody who's been severely traumatized over the course of my life and worked with people with all kinds of trauma, and I know you're getting into that now in your work, like there are times that it is not safe to be our authentic self and.
[00:21:28] You have to determine where you're at in that only you can, where you feel safe. I make the very bold choice and my poor mother, bless her, it's like her worst freaking fear that I am gonna get meed on the street for being me and I, I have to imagine that that's like really scary. I choose to be the fullness of myself because I can't be anything else anymore.
[00:21:57] I made different choices in the past because I couldn't make any other choice in the past. Honor where you are at. In, in your journey, whether you're in the chrysalis, like I'm trying to break out of this, the bypassing and the codependency, or you're like on the other side of it and you're like, God, this is really, really hard to maintain.
[00:22:17] That's where I'm at, is the, this is really, really hard to maintain. This sure is uncomfortable. Ooh, right. So wherever you're at in the journey, or if you're even in a stage where you're like, no one can know who I am. I don't feel safe at all. And in that case, all you need to work on is. Learning for you to love you, which is where especially therapy work is so essential so that you can really get into some of the, the less delicious parts of the shadow, right?
[00:22:48] There's delicious parts of the shadow, trust me, but then there's the really uncomfortable and sticky and sometimes gross and very painful parts of the shadow, and that takes the healer's touch sometimes if you can't. Fully provide your yourself with that, or you don't already have a, a support network for that?
[00:23:08] Ikenna: Hmm. Yeah. And I mean, there's like the, I'm, I'm like thinking about, um,
[00:23:21] like we're, we're basically when you have the, the shadow side of things, um, It, it can also be, um, a mixed bag when it comes to, if you decide to it, like when you're doing the shadow work, you can then dec, you can then discover like what is authentic versus what is shadow. Right? Right. Like shadow is part of our authenticity, but it's like, for example, you know, someone can place a boundary about a way that you responded to something.
[00:24:01] And if you haven't done the shadow work, you can be like, well, that was just my authentic self and you don't understand where I'm coming from and blah, blah, blah, blah,
[00:24:11] blah.
[00:24:12] Safrianna: There's, there's wounded shadow and there's healed shadow. Yeah. And I think that, that there's wounded light and healed light, right?
[00:24:18] Because love and light can be great, but if it's coming from a wound of co-dependency and I can't stand up for myself, so I'm going to. Uh, put on this people pleasing, you know, fake face. That's not healed light either. So we want this, the shadow and le light in harmony is what we're really looking for, right?
[00:24:39] And to heal the aspects of all of ourselves, all sides of ourselves that are appearing through their wounding in, in the world around us. Mm-hmm. I wanna read this comment. Yeah. Uh, one of our viewers just said, I have grown into the stage. When I am ready to be authentically open about my invisible identities more often than not in public, that being LGBTQ plus neuro spicy and disabled, and I'm not sure if this is the same person or not, but, um, I appreciate you being a voice and stigma by being yourself in public and, you know, thank you for saying that.
[00:25:13] It's, I see there in this movement for activism, we have those of us who are. The frontline fighters, um, the, the rogues, the, uh, the clerics in the background doing the healing. We have the, the paladins doing some speaking. We've got, you know, we have all these different kinds of people that are bringing what they can into the activism.
[00:25:43] And wherever you're at in your journey is an important place. I am very privileged to be in a place where I feel comfortable enough and safe enough to speak in this way. And as you grow into your ability to feel safe enough to, uh, to be public about these aspects of yourself, uh, you know, I really encourage you to continue to find the community where you can be in that authentic self and celebrate that, because being in the joy of that, more than the sorrow of that, Is, you know, that's what helps us find that more inner balance.
[00:26:18] Ikenna: So, yeah. And I like the invisible identity piece that this, um, user was telling us about. Like, I was thinking about like, what, what do we define as like shadow? And it's like society has defined different identities as shadow. Mm-hmm. Right? But it's like when you do the work, And you rip yourself free of societal biases, then you can realize like, what is actually shadow.
[00:26:53] Cuz there's also things that society may have deemed, um, like might have put on a pedestal for some, like productivity or, you know, and, um, capitalism. Capitalism. Um, but yeah, and, and so it's like, In this healing process, you then also learn that like, not everything you were taught as the shadow versus the light.
[00:27:24] Like is what it is, is what it is. Yeah. Like, um, there's a lot of concepts. I remember as a kid, like being like, oh yeah, Jesus, he sacrificed himself. That's the highest level
[00:27:36] of love. Right. I must now sacrifice myself. Mm-hmm.
[00:27:40] I must be so selfless that I have nothing to give anymore by the time I hit the age of like 16.
[00:27:48] Like the what?
[00:27:50] Safrianna: I don't love it. I don't love it for us.
[00:27:52] Ikenna: And I know that they like, you know, there's different lessons where they're like, no, that's not what we meant at all. But this autistic ask can't figure that out for themselves when you're like 10.
[00:28:03] Safrianna: Well, some pieces, it's taught very literally that that is everything that it's supposed to mean and, and.
[00:28:08] And then that gets into spiritual bypassing in its own way too. Yeah. Yeah. So it can go one way or the other. Right. This almost toxic positivity or toxic guilt and shame really. Mm-hmm. Uh, and both are bypassing different aspects of the fullness of human experience.
[00:28:29] Ikenna: It's bypassing our intuition
[00:28:31] Safrianna: Yeah. And our truth.
[00:28:34] Ikenna: Yeah. Cuz it's telling Society has told us not to trust ourselves for so long.
[00:28:38] Safrianna: Yeah, it has. It sure has.
[00:28:41] Ikenna: Like as soon as you are experiencing some sort of sensory overload and an adult tells you that, why are you acting this way? You're completely safe. Like, shut up. And
[00:28:53] Safrianna: then we're just supposed to override and we, you know, that is something that is so pervasive, is bypassing our own experience due to authority, figure feedback, and.
[00:29:07] Like if there's anything that you can gently come into working on in yourself, may it be separating yourself from that voice of authority. Yeah. Authority over you, right? Mm-hmm. That you're somehow small, that there's some something or someone, or some system that can tell you you are wrong for being you That.
[00:29:36] You are never wrong for being you.
[00:29:38] Ikenna: Yeah. And the, uh, I want to reiterate the gentleness of it, because that protective aspect of you that's like worried about, you know, the, you know, the authority figure piece was probably created when you were so young. Yes. And so it's like you're trying to work with an aspect of you that was created.
[00:30:04] You know, decades ago. And so it's just a reflex at this point. So if you find yourself in the middle of the reflex, celebrate the fact that you have the awareness of being like, oh, I caught myself. Mm-hmm. I noticed this.
[00:30:20] Safrianna: That is literally the first step. Yep. And the more noticing, the more time you go between giving into it or feeling compelled by it.
[00:30:31] Yeah. Uh, and that, I mean, it's a slow road to the healed stage, but you know, I do make this distinction quite often. I know I've been talking about it a lot lately, and I kind of mentioned it here, the distinction between being healed and continuing to heal versus healing. And again, no, there is no superiority standing on this side.
[00:30:57] That's why I don't believe in side. Really, I believe in spectrums in so many ways, many spectrums of ways of being, but you know, a spectrum from harmonized to dis harmonized or dis harmonized to harmonized. And if you're genuinely in more harmony, you're not going to see anyone in less harmony as somehow lesser than you.
[00:31:23] Mm-hmm. It has nothing to do with harmony. So. Please again, know that wherever you're at in your journey, even if it is like absolute terror, crippling terror to speak, to be, to be seen, to be heard, that's okay. Like I was there and I don't judge you for being there. And I do believe that the more gently you hold yourself in that the more easily you will be able to shift towards more harmony in yourself and.
[00:31:56] Harmonized communities that see and support you. Mm-hmm.
[00:32:00] Ikenna: And I'm still there, but it's more around shame than fear.
[00:32:03] Safrianna: Yes. Whether it's shame or some other complex emotion.
[00:32:12] Mm-hmm. Big sigh friends. Big hecken, collective side. Yeah. We are doing some big collective healing together right now, and there's the opportunity for us to. Rise to the occasion of the communities that are offered, that are here to do the healing, the generational healing, the ancestral healing, the communal healing, the clique healing, all of it, all of this separation.
[00:32:40] So may you find your people to do this healing work with, and if that happens to be us, come see us. Come talk to us. Come join us. We're hacking cute and heck, and queer and heck and fun, and we genuinely like accept all kinds of people. Mm-hmm. So may you find that acceptance Yeah. For yourself and in others.
[00:33:09] Yep. So I think that was a good place to sign off. Yep. Until next time. Mm-hmm. We're living Luna.
